Damon Cooper's BLOG
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August 1, 2006
What's Your Ultimate ColdFusion IDE?

I have a few quick questions for ColdFusion Developers out there:

1) Which IDE(s) are you currently using for ColdFusion development? (IE Dreamweaver, CF Studio, FlexBuilder/Eclipse/CFEclipse, Notepad, other, etc)

2) What IDE's have you used in the past (and why did you switch)?,

and

3) Which IDE would you LIKE to be using if you could wave a "magic wand" and make ANY changes you wanted to your IDE of choice? What are those changes?

[NOTE: Before responding, be aware you'll be subscribed to further comments on this list.]

Damon

Comments

1) Flex Builder 2 + cfeclipse + CF plugins 2) Dreamweaver MX 2004 (then I saw the light) 3) Debugging support in Eclipse Just this would make us very happy!


I might be one of the few, but I use Dreamweaver primarily. Occasionally, I use CFeclipse.

I prefer the way Dreamweaver handles development environments or "sites" in DW's parlence. I prefer the additional control over code coloring, and code collapse that Dreamweaver provides. And I love the right click "edit tag" interface. (This is probably the main thing that keeps me using it. )

However I do prefer the speed of CfEclipse. Also I prefer the ease with which you can add additional programming language support to Eclipse.

So if I had my druthers, Dreamweaver at the speed of Eclipse would be great. ADditionally, if it was a little easier to add a language to Dreamweaver that would be great too.


I was fan of CF Studio/Homesite but they have problems with Unicode pages and I do not use it them anymore.

I use Dreamweaver to create templates and CSS stuff.

I use Eclipse/CFEclipse for CF coding & version control.

What I have problem on Eclipse is creating BOM for Unicode pages. There is no way to create BOM for new files on Eclipse and I prefer Dreamweaver for this reason in my I18N projects.


Everything that is in HomeSite+ 5.5 for starters.

Then add the ability to have a popup window that shows you what is happening within a CFC. It is a pain swapping back and forth between windows to do things like copy field names returned by a query. When programming in CF 5.0 you would just put all your queries at the top of the template, then split your IDE screen so you could see the logic on the top window and the display on the bottom window. It was pretty simple to copy and paste using that method. Something similar in the next IDE would be appreciated!


I used CF Studio then Homesite+ for ages....made the switch to CFEclipse 6 months ago.

The only thing I miss about Homesite was being able to right-click files and deploy to multiple RDS/FTP servers at once...even with the Adobe RDS plugin, you can't do that in Eclipse. I still use Homesite for deployments.


1&2) I use CFEclipse exlusively. I used to use CStudio 4.5 but never really went to using DWMX because I didn't entirely trust that it would save my code as I entered it. I am a 100% hand-coder, having been brought up on a diet of vi and pico..;-)

3) CFEclipse, nothing comes close. Only thing that would be nice though, which is more a limitation of eclipse is to be able to create a file without having to link it to a file on the file system (i.e. like a good old file > new command)


1) CFEclipse 2) Combo of CFStudio and Dreamweaver 3) CFEclipse. I've got a heavy reliance on Eclipse itself now because of the other plugins I use for SVN, CSS, XML, etc. The big missing feature is of course debugging.

Give Mark Drew a job dammit ;)


1. I bounce back and forth between Eclipse and DWMX. Depends on my mood and what cool new thing is out for each.

2. CF Studio, Notepad, even Visual Studio (loved that you could have your database and code in one app, but this was ages ago and this was what the boss got with MSDN)

3. I like Eclipse with all the extensions you can put with it. My big gripes are the start up time and that you can't change ALL the text colors. Black text doesn't show on my black background. Grrr.


I use jEdit for CF editing and much else beside: python, sql, batch files, beanshell and text files. The customisation through macros and plugins just blows everything else out of the water.

Expandable abbreviations and templates are fantastic - Quick start a component by typing:

cfccff#func_name#public#returntype#

All customisable depending on the mode you're in.

I used to use Homesite and moved to jEdit then. Tried Eclipse but it's just too heavyweight and can't be used as a general purpose editor.

Anyway, I'm probably the only one. :)


1) CFEclipse

2) CF Studio for a long while, switched to DW when CF Studio started dying, and then to CFEclipse as soon as it was stable enough to use (because DW rather sucked, and the Eclipse platform is so nice).

3) CFEclipse. It's got the bits and pieces that you need, and the platform supplies the supporting pieces (version control, other editors, etc.). For the IDE itself, however, I'll wave my wand like this:

Refactoring support would be stellar, as would decent dynamic autocomplete. CFE 1.2's got some of the latter, but it needs a bunch of work. I'd also love to see the "hyperlinking" around that you can do in the Java editor (hold CTRL to turn types and members into hyperlinks to their declaration). Finally, and I don't know how you'd do it, but some kind of runtime that would allow awareness of CFC instance from outside (so I could get autocomplete of methods on a CFC that gets passed into a method (and only the CFARGUMENT type is known).


1) Eclipse (CFEclipse, and quickly becoming an Aptana fanboy), Notepad++

2) CFStudion/Homesite, DWMX, Textpad - I think I bounced around for some years trying just about everything in the time that homesite died and cfeclipse was reaching maturity.

3) I'm going to continue to be a loyal Eclipse-er. Though I wish Eclipse developers/standards would allow for a bit more interop between plugins - switching perspectives depeding on the task can be a bit of a pain at times, mostly its just the difference between UI/Filesystem support and syntax support - a minor gripe, really.


I used CF Studio and HomeSite at my previous job. Nowdays I use CFEclipse - I love Eclipse because of good support of plugins. I prefer to edit my code manually. I do have DreamWeaver installed but it's very rare that I use it - it somehow feels a bit clunky to me. I agree . . . give Mark Drew a job already!


I have used Homesite, DW and lately CFEclipse.

Something I am missing in CFEclipse is to be able to dubbleclick and select a tag or select the whole tag. Just like in HS. It is really convient then I move around code.


I still use homesite as my primary editor because it has the expression builder with all of its useful information, the custom toolbars which allow me to have a single sidebar and nothing else on the page and the whole RDS experience (in 2 windows no less). I use dreamweaver to download/compare sites and nothing else. I should use it more for CSS, but I tend to do that by hand. I use topstyle for my CSS instead of dreamweaver because it plugs into homesite. I really want to use cfeclipse more but I'm really 'stuck' in a homesite mindset when doing code. If cfeclipse (which has RDS) had an expression builder, then it would help me move over. If there was a 'how to move to cfeclipse for homesite users' video, it would help as well. The main advantage of CFEclipse is the new debugger which is fantastic! I never got into using as debugger in 5, but it's needed moreso now. When I post this I expect an email showing me how to have an expression builder in cfeclipse, how to get an eclipse css plugin and were to find an eclipse site/file compare utility. At that point I'll have no reason not to be on cfeclipse other than lazyness. :)


I've used CF Studio, CFEclipse, jEdit, Notepad++...

I'm having a REEEAAALLYY hard time leaving CF Studio when I'm doing straight CF development. As far as I'm concerned, if I had truly updated help (not kludged into the existing help as the update gives you), it would be the best CF editor out there. As someone else stated, I'm a 100% hand coder and I can't bring myself to trust DW. My favorite features of CF Studio that keep bringing me back: 1) Customizable hotkeys for snippets 2) RDS/FTP support 3) Integration with file system (I can create/copy/move/delete files with a right click) 4) Integrated help (I love the highlight a tag and hit f1 thing. CFeclipse tries, but doesn't get there) 5) Split screen 6) Very customizable code coloring 7) Rock solid (CFEclipse is not there yet) 8) Relatively lightweight 9) Tag insight (This is why I couldn't switch to jEdit, even though I know it's possible if you're a java wizard)


1)Currently an avid CFEclipse users and love it.

2)CF studio then HomeSite+, very little Dreamweaver (hated it).

Eclipse has so many useful plugins, its one IDE to rule them all. CF, CSS, XML, db, UML, ETc...

3) The Expression Builder in HomeSite+ (ctrl+shift+e) was nice for a quick reference. Yes dictionary view does the trick now but not as fast.

The directory searching in Eclipse seems slower that HomeSite+.


I use:

1) CFEclipse 2) Dreamweaver 3) TextWrangler

DW is useful because of it's very well-integrated FTP and remote server support, RDS tools, and things that the collage of Eclipse plugins I use don't handle well, don't work well on OSX, or work well enough but don't integrate with eachother.

When I'm developing locally and deploying remotely I use CFE because it does many things very nicely, plays well with other plugins, and doesn't do creepy things like reformat my code for me whether I want it to or not.

TextWranger is ultra-handy for little, quick jobs and when I'm using Transmit, the FTP client for OSX because I can open directly from Transmit to TW and make a quick change.

Thanks for askin!


I'm currently using CFEclipse as a plugin to Flex Builder, having recently transitioned out of Eclipse + CFEclipse.

I've used Dreamweaver, CF Studio, Notepad and Homesite to varying degrees. CFStudio got dropped because it was outdated and unsupported, I still use HS on few occasions when I don't want to wait for DW to load. And there's the reason I switched from DW - it's sluggish, the "site" construct usually hurt more than helped me, and there were no tools native to DW that were of value to me as a server-side developer. Notepad is still a great "fix it fast" utility.

I would LIKE to see more "ease of use" improvements come to anything Eclipse based. For a newbie, it was REALLY hard getting used to the whole "Workbench - Perspective - Project" construct. I know there are some bundles out there that ease this somewhat now. I love the rich plugin development community - they'll be the lifeblood of Eclipse development for quite some time. As for my particular style of development, let's work on getting some framework (we're a Mach-ii shop) intelligence built in to the editor so we can have "intellisense-like" functionality for the data objects referenced in my views. Yeah, i know i should try to build it myself, but it's so much easier to tell someone else to!


1) DW8 and CFEClipse. DW for design/css/etc. Eclipse for CF coding. I also open files in NotePad+ for a quick tweak.

3) I'd prefer DW. I'm most comfortable with it, although if Eclipse could be made to support ALL of DW design (WYSIWYG) features, I'd switch. The DW support for CSS is great, and half of my time (at least) is spent on the design side of things.


This is one of my more significant pet peeves with ColdFusion.

With all the RAD development options for application development on .NET or J2EE, why is it that the options for said development on ColdFusion is so weak?

CFEclipse is a very nice bit of work. And so are select features of Dreamweaver and HomeSite+. However, none of them have interactive debugging with breakpoints and step through.

Which makes me wonder how folks are patient enough to develope complex CFC based applications! The lack of insight into what is going on without having to resort to adf (abort, dump and refresh) seems problematic at best.

And the useful stuff such as database integration requiring RDS access is frustrating! RDS is, to me, a huge security concern, and in its present state should only be enabled on local development versions.


You mean a debugger like this?

http://www.fusion-reactor.com/fusiondebug/

Your not going to have to wait long, but you will have to use cfeclipse to make use of it.


Still using CF Studio 4.5.

Its the limitations of the CFeclipse file explorer that are keeping me from switching. Need to see more than the file name, like file date, file size and type.

Also need the other CF Studio features like snippets, F9 expand/contract, etc.


CF studio & now Homesite+

A few things that can make homesite better & even preferred.

- support for sFTP - Support for i18n (BOM support like dreamweaver) - Better Debugger (not that existing crappy one)

I still feel the F1 (context) help it provides is still the best (even for an expert CFer) & thankfully an updater is always available for tags with every new CF release.


I still use textpad, with Advanced QueryTool, and that primarily takes care of any of my needs.

Textpad has powerful macro programming, regex support, massive file/search/replace thru many subfolders.

It's fast, lean, and does exactly what i need and no more. I really don't like IDE's, but I respect each coder's right to use their own tools for coding, as long as they do the same for me.

But it would be nice if there was a new update for textpad or a new textpad-like tool that is fast and powerful, without being a kludge like most ide's (no offense)

That's my list.


I forgot to mention in my first comment, macro support would be wonderful. I've always used TextPad and/or Emacs as a secondary editor, exclusively for macro support.


Crap, it helps to read the post before the comments... lol. "Read the directions" was never something I was good at.

1) CFE, DW, TextWrangler+Transmit 2) CFStudio, DW, DW UltraDev (icky), notepad 3) CFE: CFC insight that will follow variable assignments and inheritance to give insight on CFCs as you type RDS wizards that work on OSX and don't conflict with MyEclipse and other plugins A debugger plugin that can talk to CF's (hopefully soon to be implemented) debugging engine Code formatting, like MyEclipse does, that lays out XML and HTML the way I would ;)

That's pretty close to it. I may think of something else, but I can't think of anything else at the moment. :)


1) Currently using Eclipse and CFEclipse.

2) Have used everything from frontpage to notepad to homesite 1-5 to dreamweaver 1-8 to jedit to golive (before and after adobe) to textpad to bbedit before switching to the first release of CFEclipse.

3) I love the Eclipse environment, the other plugins and tools integration (version control, ant, etc). If I could wave my magic wand, I would get the alternate file systems support to work in Eclipse, fix a lot of the little things in CFEclipse (like drag & drop text and the need to sometimes close and re-open files) and add strong support for a lot of the popular frameworks (generate circuit.xml file, add event handler, generate controller cfc, handle form with reactor, add cfc to coldspring config, etc, etc). It would be great if Adobe would send a couple smart guys toward Mark Drew and tell them to do his bidding.


1) cfstudio, eclipse (flex builder & cfeclipse)

2) cfstudio

3) lighter cfeclipse w/cfc insight & some debugging tools (but frankly after working w/cf for so long debugging isn't anything like the show stopper i used to think it was).


Oh my, wouldn't a poll or survey have been easier for you (and us) to digest, Damon? :-) But since they say you can't complain about an election if you don't vote, here goes...

1) I was a loyal CF Studio user, and since it was dropped I've used HomeSite+ instead. I can't believe how many don't know it exists and is free on the DWMX or Studio MX CD--for licensed users of those products. HomeSite (which you can purchase) is not the same as HomeSite+, folks! I do what I can to share that news.

2) I have used DWMX, but always found it slow to start up and I really desire fast startup. Still, I can point out many benefits of DWMX and do, and just got DWMX 8 and plan to do some comparisons.

Like many here, I have tried CFEclipse but found it lacking in things I needed. Thankfully, Mark Drew has been very gracious in listening to the community and helping add things that we've missed. I plan to try it again "real soon now". It's clear that the community is strongly in favor of it. (But I HATE that opening a file from the file system launches an entire new instance! I just don't work in projects as it expects.)

3) As for which I'd "like to use", I'm happy to stick with HS+, for now. Call me a curmudgeon. There's nothing in it I'd change, other than perhaps adding a debugger. I realize that's not likely to happen, and with the Eclipse-based one being put together by the folks at FusionReactor, that may well push more of us to CFE.

Of course, as I and others start to get into Subversion, that will be another nod for CFE. While HS+ has support for source code control via the SCC API (using the "projects" feature), another feature many miss, my understanding is that SVN doesn't currently support have built-in support for the SCC API.

But let's all see what more the community has to say. Thanks for asking, Damon.


1. HomeSite+ 2. CFStudio, NetObjects ;), BBEdit, CF/Eclipse (I just can't get into this one, it's so sbtly different from HS, I just don't know...) 3. HomeSite+ cross platform and bug fixed, i just _love_ the way this editor works. snippets, shortcuts. Most wanted feature would have to be some kind of cfc/customtag insight and stuff like that.

4. Shoot Dreamweaver.


Went from CF Studio to DW/HS to CFEclipse

Love CFEclipse. Few things missing (but that Aptana plugin looks promising for some areas). Mark and crew are working on some very cool upcoming things (CFC introspection, project templates [maybe], and other great stuff). The RDS extensions from labs are getting there, but could use a tweak here and there (or some ability to customize). Could be a great addition if it were for either/or Flex and/or CF development (a little too targeted to Flex/CF integration). Better (easier to understand) FTP support would be nice. Page templates when creating a new file (a la DW). Support for remote and local snippets libraries, simultaneously, with some customization from a personal ini/xml file of some sort (rather than using system environment variables).

Yes, pay Mark Drew. No, don't charge us for it (now that's community support...)


You know, a good Flash Form layout tool in eclipse would be another nice and missing feature.


I use CFEclipse (now) almost exclusive. I was using DW before the last beta... but it hasn't been opened for development in weeks by me.

Plugins... * CF Plugin from Flex. (Nice start, could use some work.) * Aptana * (No Flex... you guys haven't said you run on Eclipse 3.2 yet.) * JSEclipse * XML Tool ??? Not running right now... and about to leave for 20th wedding anniv. dinner, forgive me. * SVN

(Needs... ...SFTP ...Unit Testing ...Debugging of the calibar or better than upcomming solutions ...Please leave the CTRL-M option so it works accross all software in eclipse the same, not like DW! or like HS!)

Those are minimums to compete with IDEs for PHP and for .Net. Many people choose the platform by the IDE, which is why MS gives it away for free. (Even though it is limited in the free version.)


1) Homesite+ (5.5) (on my PC) + CFEclipse (on my Mac - because there is nothing else that supports RDS)

2) I have tried CFEclipse when I got a new computer, and I thought it was fast enough to run a heavy Java application. When I finally got everthing to work (RDS) and tried to customize things, I found out that some things just 'would not work'. Things like indentation of parameters in customtags. The crappy alignment of tabs-inserted-as-spaces, etc. So I switched back to Homesite+, and I now only use CFEclipse when I'm at home working on my Mac.

3) CFEclipse, because Homesite+ has some nasty bugs (memory corruption is the biggest thing). I just would like CFEclipse to be more like Homesite+, and then without the bugs for a start. Then I would write my own plugins, to get it to work with the frameworks I'm developing with ..


Damon -

On a separate item there is a interesting article about RIA.

http://www.tekrati.com/research/News.asp?id=7511


Eclipse + CFEclipse would be great IF only Eclipse was able to save files with a UTF-8 BOM. That means you have to add cfprocessingdirectives to every template if you want to ensure they are processed correctly.


1) cfeclipse

2) homesite 5.5 ... no real reason to switch ...

3) IMHO.... Visual Studio is *the* standard to work towards. VS.NET has heaps of features but feels a bit flakey, VS6 fealt more solid. ... certainly NOT Eclipse-based (people regard Eclipse highly because they haven't really used Visual Studio or they're more concerned with CVS integration than using it for code)

MUST HAVE's - selecting text and being able to drag it from one line to another (Eclipse does NOT do this) - BREAKPOINTS ... WATCHES.... STEP IN/OVER ... _please_!!!!


Barry,

Not sure what you're talking about... some Eclipse plugins don't support drag-n-drop, but CFEclipse sure does. So unless you mean something other than d'n'd, I think you may be in error.

Also I think your bias against Eclipse is fairly narrow-minded... I don't use CVS at all, and I have used VS (though not for some time) and I always thought it was a massive pain in the butt. I mean, maybe VS is THE THING, but having worked iwth it in Java it's NICE... so I don't really get your assertion that whatever we end up with should NOT be eclipse.

Laterz...


Using CFEclipse now, and have been for a couple of years.

Was using Dreamweaver MX.

I'd like to see an Eclipse based plugin that supports, code folding, compile time errors and supports easy and fast editing of large files. I would also like to see some sort of ant/rds/auto build/deploy system? so I can easily do daily builds and deploy them to testing servers. Some sort of ANT/RDS integration is the key part here.

Cheers Gareth.


sigh... settle down Jared.

I did say "ïn my humble opinion"... but you're right, I'm not a big Eclipse fan. I mean, sure it's better than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick but to me somethings that VS does just makes more sence.

and since no one else is mentioning VS then I might as well be vocal about it to get the point across... (poor Borland....)

some small but important thing's (to me) VS has that CFEclipse doesn't ... highlighting a function and going "go to definition" and jump to the function ... split screen to top half/bottom half (like MSWord can). yes I know Eclipse can break off to display another code window as a tab but I want to compare 2 lines above/below when it's the same file.

I'll concede my mistake about D'n'd text. It's not in Eclipse for Java nor Flex and I forgot cfEclipse got it working.

what's that line about "pleasing äll of the people all of the time"?


Barry,

Eclipse doesn't support d'n'd text, but CFEclipse has added primitive support. So you're both right on that point. Though I'm not sure how much use d'n'd is for coding; I've never missed it. That's what refactoring tools are for. ;)

Eclipse does provide the capability to do hyperlink-style jumps in code, but CFEclipse doesn't leverage it with the CFML editor. If you open up a Java project, however, all that goodness is just waiting to be tapped. You don't even have to highlight, just hold CTRL and all methods, properties, and fields magically turn into hyperlinks. Implementing it for CF is a bit more difficult, because CF is so runtime-driven.


Barry,

Your hatred for Eclipse is odd for someone in the CF community, but it happens, and that's fine. I think VS is ok, for what it does. It'll never be a CF IDE, but it's fine in its own space.

Now comparing CFEclipse to Visual Studio is like comparing apples to pears (you know, they're both fruit, and they come in green, grow on a tree and you can get them at the store, but that's all). The best comparison here is Eclipse with JDT (java dev tools) to Visual Studio. Eclipse does have "go to definition", refactoring, like Barney said, and all those fancy things. It's strange to have these types of tools in CF because of its dynamic nature.

As for debugging, stepping, breakpoints and the like, it would be cool, but, I mean, come on, how hard is it to do cfdump/cfabort? We're dynamic here.

Furthermore, I do regard Eclipse highly, and I have used VS quite a bit. Integration with other systems (cvs, ant, etc) is hugely important in an IDE for productivity sake. Eclipse's plugin architecture makes a lot of sense. Visual Studio, if you haven't noticed, is not exactly a haven for plugin developers, plus there's the initial cost (yes, they have a free version, but it's not the same), where Eclipse & CFEclipse are free forever.


GEEEZZZ! Nathan!

I don't _HATE_ Eclipse. don't try and make this a religious war.

I mean FCOL! it's just another glorified notepad and we're in disagreement over less than 10% of the functionality of each.

I'm just saying that I think it *OK* and I _prefer_ another code editor and having used it since VB5/6 days. and that it has features that I use that are worth looking at, hence my lone voice in saying so. (note the personal preference bit)

how about we agree to disagree and have an Eclipse based editor full of VS.NET features that aint in there yet. yes? MS version control is shite but I don't use Eclipse CVS support. the QuantumDB plug-in is good but I like the server pane for SQLServer more , even more than bothering with QueryAnalizer.

but be careful. what are we talking about... CFEclipse or having an editor + plug-ins?

"As for debugging, stepping, breakpoints and the like, it would be cool"

I was really pissed at the lack of a CFDump in ASP.NET but using the line by line debugging with watches and being able to see the value of any variable (inc datasets) with just a mouse over is (again, my opinion) much more convieniant. it's just a shame that you're tied to the IDE to do any worthwhile debugging

... and I do concede that CF's runtime nature may prove to be impossible for this to do...


Back in the day I used CF Studio, after MM purchased Allaire I made the switch to Homesite and now I'm on CFEclipse. I gave Dreamweaver several attempts to grow on me but it always felt slow and I really didn't use 90% of the fuctionality that made it so slow, but I digress...

What I look for in an IDE is a platform that not only accomodates my develpment process but at the same time is capable of growing with me.

Case in point, our shop recently made the switch from CVS to SVN, since we use Eclipse/CFEclipse we simply downloaded Subclipse ,dropped in the plugin and we're off and running in no time.

My point is not to promote Eclipse here (I like it no doubt) but rather the time that Eclipse saves me and the flexability it affords our team of developers.

IMHO I'd like to see Adobe take CFEclipse to the next level.


Ok,

Use DreamWeaver 8 Previously Homesite 5.5

Moved as Homesite not being continued, thought it was time.

Features I would like, only three. Two easy ones and a hard one.

1. Select a Tag and press F1 or similar bring up the help for this tag, not quick help crap. But the full compiled help page for this tag. (EASY) 2. Intellisence on cfc's. So when i'm typing com.companyname. it should intellisence complete this, same with method attributes etc. You have all the info (EASY). 3. Intergrated Breakpoint Debugging. I reckon CF have lost more developers due to the lack of this feature than any other. .NET has one, Java has one, PHP has one, CF used to have one and some brianac got rid of it. (HARD)

So if you guys could do all that, i'd be happy, and if any IDE had those features i'd use it, wouldn't care if it was DW, ECLIPSE, HOMESITE or VI.


Barry,

Sorry for misunderstanding... you seemed pretty adamant that the solution NOT be "Eclipse based" which is definitely neither Eclipse nor "Eclipse plus plugins" and wasn't all that clear as to why... so it's understandable that people would be a bit upset.

It's not so much a matter of "religion" unless you look at it like Creation vs. Evolution, i.e. both claim to be fact when no empirical proof can be brought to bear to prove either to the satisfaction of the other camp. Your insistence that this be a non-Eclipse solution sort of opened the door for that. I was a bit surprised, because, as I said, CFE certainly supports drag-and-drop among many other things that Eclipse may not support off the shelf.

You didn't say you wanted this and that thing in an IDE, whatever the platform may be, you said very specifically NOT Eclipse based and then made some totally false assertions, which very much gave the impression of a strong bias against it. What else is one to assume when statements like "certainly NOT Eclipse-based (people regard Eclipse highly because they haven't really used Visual Studio or they're more concerned with CVS integration than using it for code)" are made?

You apparently communicated yourself poorly, which is forgivable, and since you've clarified, I think I can agree that Eclipse with a family of commercial plugins that are officially supported by Adobe is the way to go. It keeps the platform open, gives me the choice of adding more plugins if I want and doesn't tie me to Windows. Incidentally, DW and CFE are really the only options I have for OSX, so your assertion that I use it because of it's CVS tools or because I'm just so inexperienced is mostly what I found troubling in your comment.

Thanks again for clarifying!


Wow,

I just read this post fully. If CF don't do something about debugging then they obviously are not listening.

Given CF have told us it's not possible, but there seems to be a third party one emerging, I think we have been lead up the garden path.

Damon will sort it for us.


Third party debugging tool? where?


Guys, thanks for the feedback this far. Much appreciated. We've heard you all loud and clear, and I, at least, realize now more than ever from this small sampling of feedback that our suspicions were correct.

I sincerely hope we can both pleasantly shock and awe you with what we have on store.

I will say this: the solution we come up with may not be what you're expecting, but it may be what just what you've wished for :)

Damon


no spoilers tho... I like surprises...

> may be what just what you've wished for

hmmm...what was that line?...

"be careful what you wish for, you just might get it"...


Third party debugger here.

http://www.fusion-reactor.com/fusiondebug/

Out this month.


1) Currently Using: Dreamweaver

2) Used in the past: Coldfusion Studio/Homesite/Eclipse

3) Like Using: Coldfusion Studio

It's simple, it's code only. The sites functionality in dreamweaver is great, but it doesn't do a lot of things that CFStudio did.

For example: RDS plugin for explorer shell and in projects you can't specify 'virtual' folders and can't script the release to the live server like in CFStudio/Homesite+

Mainly it would have these: - Be fast (unlike dreamweaver) - Be a text editor with code 'prompting' and tag editors - Good database support (ie RDS) that is project independant - quick searchable local docs - what the hell is dreamweaver thinking? That's not a reference, it's a lame quick fix. Examples? link to livedocs? - have CFStudio-like toolbars - have Cntl-Y (remove line) and other 'standard text edit functions' - that said a visual studio/mmc snap in would be great - A SQL Server Management Studio Interface -- autohide panel -- virtical and horizonal splits - Coldfusion Administrator MMC plugin or ide manager for setting up mappings, etc like in CFStudio that posts to admin (using password) - Loved CFStudio's Query editor also - you could use coldfusion variables in queries then save them to the project - direct support for subversion, cvs and sourcesafe (ss is there) - debugging tools - log reading through RDS


I started using DW 6 and 7 but when I saw that Eclipse had integrated CVS version control and version comparsion tools I switched to Eclipse. When CFEclipse came along, installed it. When I started using frameworks for my Flash development, I moved all my AS code into external .as files and install the AS Eclipse plugin. Then I found a swf viewer plugin and I installed that and so I run the netconnection debugger in Eclipse. I also using the swf viewer to run the Xray object inspector and the LuminuxBox the Flash logger. I also have a tail like plugin for watching my various cf log files as they get written to. So now I totally using Eclipse for Flash, Flash Remoting and Coldfusion development. And when I start doing Flex development, I be getting Flex Builder.

I like to see Coldfusion cfc debugger plugin for Eclipse.


So, Chris, since you indicate that you are a DW user, and you liked and wished you could use CF Studio, did you know that you have the update to CF Studio (HomeSite+) on your DWMX CD? No, you can't buy it, nor can you download it anywhere. You can only install it from that CD, and you must have a license key for DWMX or Studio MX. You would seem to have that. Check it out. It's not on the installer menu (at least not until DWMX 8), but it's on the CD. Enjoy!

I just posted a blog entry to offer more:

http://carehart.org//2006/8/1/homesite_plus_on_dwmx_cd


Charlie, it sounds like I wasn't clear. I started using DW and switched to Eclipse. I never used CF Studio and but I am aware of Homesite and I am aware it is on the DW disk. I may have tried Homesite but I don't recall. I use a lot of useful Eclipse plugins and I'm definitely planning to switch my Flash and Flash Remoting development to Flex. My development direction has always been RIA's with Flash and now Flex with CF as the middleware to the database and other server side services.


Sorry, Chris V. I was writing my reply to Chris D (who posted just before you). Your note arrived while I was writing, and I didn't catch it before submitting. I was writing to Chris Dawes.


1) I use cfEclipse. 2) Have used CF Studio, Home Site, Dreamweaver and text editors. 3) What I want is a better cfdump. I want to see the data as it is changed and it's performance characteristics. In other words, did what I expect to happen actually happen and was it's performance acceptable. Additionally, if it offered other alternatives, that would be nice too.


> 3) Which IDE would you LIKE to be using if you could wave a "magic wand" and make ANY changes you wanted to your IDE of choice? What are those changes?

does this include how much it costs?

> "... and make ANY changes you wanted ... What are those changes?"

answer: make sure it remains $free

I've got a hunch that some of the appeal of CFEclipse is that Rob, Mark, Spike, et al have made it free. and good on 'em.

but if they started charging for it, if it was, say, US$99 there'd be a bit of a drop off, sure.

would you pay US$499 for CFEclipse (Flex builder prices)? I know Gareth's (a previous poster and CFEclipse fan) penny-pinching boss wouldn't.

I'm curious: how much are ppl willing to pay for an Adobe ColdFusion IDE?


Dreamweaver 8 (it started growing on me since MX 2004) and HomeSite+ 5.5. I mainly use HomeSite+ to open large FuseBox main fuse files as Dreamweaver seems to choke when I open them (some sort of testing it does that HomeSite doesn't?).


Currently using Eclipse, with the CFEclipse, RDS and WTP plugins. I've previously used HomeSite and DreamWeaver, along with generic code highlights like KWrite. I stopped because they weren't code centric enough (esp. DreamWeaver).

I'd like to carry on using Eclipse, with full-blown tag and object insight for you own objects.


WHOA! Even after CFUnited I didnt expect that so many people in the community are using CFEclipse (I shall make you switch one day Charlie!!!). Looking through the requests, most of them are already in the works, somethings like "make CFEclipse more like HomeSite" are very subjective, since once you "switch" there arent many features in HomeSite that you would want in CFEclipse or that cant be done another (maybe better?) way.

Great feedback.

oh.. I use CFEclipse (Code) and Dreamweaver (UI and RDS sync). HomeSite only to compare the things that users tell me are "so great" about it (it remains closed 99.9% of the time)

What I would like to see in my CF editor? * CFC introspection intellisense (insight, whatever you want to call it), * RDS/FTP/sFTP right click put/get. * UnitTest templates, * Generate Getters and Setters refactoring, * Click into Functions and CFC's, * CFCDocumentation, * Framework Support via Application Templates, * Integrated Coffee Making

I think that will do for now... until I come up with more features I want.


We need someone to make a mega list that people can submit other features to be added to the list. Then take that list allow for comments under each feature... and voting for features on 0 - don't want, 1 - want, 2 - want bad enough to pay for, 3 - make or break feature

(Charlie, HS isn't on DW8 disks is it?)


1) For regular ColdFusion, I use CFEclipse 1.3 Beta with Eclipse 3.2. For Flex development, I use CFEclipse 1.2 with Eclipse 3.1.

2) I have used every version of Dreamweaver since version 3, Homesite, Homesite+, CFStudio, Notepad, Notepad++, Visual Emacs, BBEdit and probably a dozen more obscure softweare titles. Why so many? Different development environments and experimentation into what features really do help productivity.

3) The magic wand? That is tough. There are so many plugins that cover such a spectrum of features. I would not try and put all of the needed features into one perspective/view. CFEclipse has provided a great deal of features that the core CF developer needs. My magic wand is that the CF community, possibly through the assistance of Adobe, should start a project to gather all of the plugins that integrate and function cleanly together and merge them into a ColdFusion suite. This suite I would hope, for the exception of Flex Builder/Developer, be open source and can have external contributions for. This is similar to the idea of the Web Tools Project that can be downloaded with Eclipse. The goal would be to identify what does a ColdFusion developer need? XML editing, CF editing, Debugging, RDS, Stylesheet utlities, JS debugging, Actionscipt Debugging, increased help tools, integrated documents and online books, Snippets, Version control (multiple flavors), project management integration for task tracking, code insight, component browising..etc.

The goal here is to download, load the workspace and be %100 effective in seconds. What made me switch from previous tools? The time from load to productivity. This measure of time should be be as important as how fast a new model of sports car can get from 0 to 60.


John Farrar: We could get it added to featureOrNot.com ?


Source code formatting is a must for me. I pathologically hit the 'Apply Source Formatting' option in Dreamweaver 8 to keep my code all nice and tidy and indented. This is probably the single most important issue that keeps me using DW8 instead of CFEclipse.


"Source code formatting is a must for me. I pathologically hit the 'Apply Source Formatting' option in Dreamweaver 8 to keep my code all nice and tidy and indented. This is probably the single most important issue that keeps me using DW8 instead of CFEclipse.

Posted By Joel Cox / Posted At 8/2/06 9:32 AM"

OUCH!!! That feature is pure EVIL!!! I have hit it a few times by accident and all it did was mess up all of my spacing and indentation. That one feature is the main reason I quit using DW for day to day coding.

My magic wand... Create plug ins for things like frameworks, FLEX 2, Spry, JS, etc... for HomeSite +. That is the best tool out there for CF development bar none (including Eclipse with all of its plugins). It does for CF what Hot Dog Pro did for HTML all those years ago!


Actually, it works well for me. It might require that you set up the tags to your liking, and, in one case I had to edit two .vtm files by hand.

In cfcomponent.vtm:

In cffunction.vtm:

This will format the cfc nicely, with new lines between each cffunction


I currently use CFEclipse for CF work, and I used to love it. But I'm starting to do .NET work as well and there are things that Visual Studio.NET does that I would *love* to see in Eclipse:

1) Intellisense: I love the way VS.NET knows what variables are in scope and provides them with tab-completion. Even a very basic, dumbed-down version of this would make CFEclipse great.

2) Automatic indenting: If I cut and paste code in VS.NET, it automatically indents it during the paste.


Started with VI/Notepad (the 'good old days'), CFStudio made life much easier, moved to Dreamweaver MX because I had to (Certified Instructor) but still used CF Studio and then HomeSite+ for 'real' coding... been using CFEclipse exclusively for quite a while now and like it, though DW 8 made a lot of improvements.

I'd like to see better debugging and, more than anything, introspection. "foo = createObject...." followed by receiving a list of method names when typing "foo." and a list of arguments when inside the method call parens. I'd also really like to see refactoring, and it'd be very nice to have some compliance checking for accessibility. While I'm at it, I think the ability to search only within or only not within comments would be useful, and I'd like an "Application.cfc" wizard that asks you to check the methods to add and it cranks out the App CFC real fast. I find the CFC Builder in Eclipse and DW VERY useful, but it'd be MUCH more useful if you could jump back in and out of it with a CFC that's been created. Support for simple Object modeling (Class diagrams) that generate stub files would also be a very nice feature.


1) Dreamweaver 8 almost exclusively, also use Homesite +

2) Have tried CFEclipse and right now it just does not do it for me. For me it is not very intuitive.

3) I would like to see a ColdFusion-centric version of Dreamweaver.


I used CFstudio/Homesite+ for years and years until just recently when I created a multilingual site. Lack of unicode support forced me to make a switch, so I started to use Eclipse instead. Then I discovered what has been mentioned here numerous times -- the lack of Eclipse's ability to write the BOM on unicode templates. Aside from that, there were a wide range of little things I didn't like about CFEclipse that made me switch over to DW. I feel no need to get into detail, since it seems that many of my issues are shared, and I'm confident that I'll be switching back to CFEclipse at some point in the future.

As for where I find Dreamweaver lacking, so far I have two major annoyances with it:

1) the damned file tab! I want that thing split like it is in Homesite, so there are two panes, with the folder tree above and the files in the selected folder below. That one long pane irritates the crap out of me. 2) (free, or built-in) Subversion support. DW really seems to have it together with the local/remote site support and deployment options and all that, and the lack of proper subversion support is a glaring hole. I'm aware there's a plugin I can buy, but would cut into my hookers-n-blow budget, and I can't have that. Besides, it's not that big of a deal to have to switch over to TortoiseSVN to manage that stuff. It'd just be extra nice if that functionality were built right in, especially since DW already has a number of options for source control. -- just thought of another: 3) In DW, the attribute code hints always show you all the attributes for a tag, even attributes you've already got in your tag. This irritates me more than the file pane thing. Not only should it show only the attributes I've not already used, but it should also show only the attributes that are applicable to the tag and attribute choices I've already selected. For example, attributes that apply only to a cfinput in a form with a format of 'flash' should not appear as options in a form that's not of a flash type.


1) I tend to use homesite+ for most backend coding and DW8 for the presentation. I have not cared for CFEclipse thru 1.2, and I am just trying 1.3, which seems improved.

2) I have used homesite/studio since it was first released. I have used many IDEs for Java and was a JBuilder user for years. Now I use Eclipse, more because of its ubiquity than anything else. I think that its text handling is clunky. I often find myself using TextPad, because it is simple, reliable and has great search and file comp. In my Mac days, I loved BBEdit for much the same reason.

It would be great to have a one-stop IDE. DW with better CF, XML and FLEX building would be great. Eclipse has a long way to go, but has potential. I think that to be great, any IDE also needs to have the pure text (code) power of TextPad.


I use HomeSite 5.5. It rocks! If I could change the following things they would be:

1. Better RegExp in the extended search/replace.

2. The Component method list as done in CFEclipse.

3. The TODO stuff from Eclipse.

4. Imporved dynamic snippets like Eclipse (ie. ones that have variables, etc.)

That would make Homesite probably the best ever CF IDE :)


John F asked, "(Charlie, HS isn't on DW8 disks is it?)"

Let me repeat, since I don't know what perspective you're asking from. Yes, HomeSite+ is on the DW8 CD. I just got it the other day, and not only is it there (as it was since the first DWMX in 2003) but it is also finally on the installer menu (it was not, in DWMX or DWMX 2004).

Now, if you REALLY mean HomeSite, no, that is NOT on the CD. Homesite is the commercial product that lacks some features in HomeSite+, and it is sold separately. Again, HomeSite+ (which adds RDS features and more) is NOT sold and is ONLY available on the DWMX CD.

Hope that's clear enough. If not, I had offered that blog entry last night to try to drive the point home:

http://carehart.org//2006/8/1/homesite_plus_on_dwmx_cd

It's gotten a lot of hits on FullAsAGoog, which is good to see. :-) The world will some day understand this conundrum...at least until we hear whatever whizbang new editor Damon has hinted at. :-) And yes, Mark, you will get me on CFE one day, soon. I promise! I again thank you and the team for all the efforts so far.


"4. Imporved dynamic snippets like Eclipse (ie. ones that have variables, etc.)"

I'm not sure how these snippets in CFE work, but in HomeSite+ you have variables inside snippets. Use $$VARIABLE and you'll get a variable dialog popup.


Mingo, I didn't know that about snippets! Good to know. But I actually miswrote... I didn't mean snippets, I meant code-templates. I would like to be able to auto-insert things like date/time into a code template (type a keyword then hit CTRL+j). If that can be done, you might just rock my world :)


Well Ben, it doesn't seem to work :( anybody?


Mingo, are you asking about code templates in HS+/CF Studio? An example is to type scriptj then hit ctrl-j. It will turn that into the full tag blog for entering javascript.

Or were you asking how to do the same in CFE?


Not what we expected??? What are you going to do... create an editor that runs in VS2005?


Re: Charlie, No I was trying to get the homsite+ $$VARIABLE function to get to work inside the ctrl-j code templates, but they don't.


1.HomeSite+ for old CFMX6.1 jobs, DreamWeaver when I am sent files created with DW8 and flexBuilder+CFEclipse to get up to speed with mxml. 2.I havent really let go of any of then have I! 3.A new homesite for cf8 would do it for me.(I still like a full page of context sensitive help) and lots of AJAX help files would be nice.


"I'm not sure how these snippets in CFE work, but in HomeSite+ you have variables inside snippets. Use $$VARIABLE and you'll get a variable dialog popup."

@Mingo: Snippets in CFEclipse work in the same way, kind of, you put $${variable} and have a dialog box for that variable, but you can also do $${variable:default} to get default as the value or you can do $${variable:option1|option2|option3} to get a drop down.

You can define some trigger text for the snippet, eg. "snip" and then when you tap Ctrl + J after writing "snip" it will trigger your snippet.

you can also write snip*2 and hit Ctrl + J and it will insert two snippets.

There is also a bunch of variables you can but as snippets like username, date (in various formats) and the file

I hope that helps


Damon -

I would have you look at APTANA IDE, since it has a good starting point of being a 'coders' IDE. I've seen some 'good' CSS editors. I want hints for cfmx, css, JavaScript, JavaScript frameworks and more. It should be a 'plugin' environment which gives the developer more help than one would want. The next Dreamweaver should give the designer/developer more flexibilty to drag/drop what is important to them.


I don't want hints, i don't want autocomplete, i don't like any of those features.

Maybe i am an old salty dog, aka old school. But i just want my editor to let me type, and not try to interfere with that.

I don't mind color syntaxes, or reference guides, but don't take control over my typing.

And i want to allow better documentation of applications, so that we can associate files/folders together as part of an application, and therefore deploy together, and help with documentation.


Craig,

There have been times that I've shut it off myself, but that was mostly because I found it annoying, not because it was oldskool... these days I tend to leave it on because I just don't have room in my head for all the details I have to follow for everything in my life as it is without rememberingn valid values for the cfsqltype="" attribute, for instance.

I'm not sure that oldskool has anything to do with it though... I think you're just stubborn and like swimming upstream. ;)

Laterz, J


Well said, Craig. My biggest issue with CFE right now is that there seems to be no way to disable auto-completion of quotes/parens/pound signs within script and cfscript...I use cfscript a lot, so I am constantly getting bad syntax like "#var##"" in my code.


Craig,

I am with you in parts. I think there is something to be said about just knowing how to do things without having an autocomplete or a plugin that does it for you. I mean what happens when you are at lunch as some one is like "Dude, how can I make text italic using css?" do you stop and say, "I will tell you when I get back to my computer and open my CSS plugin in Eclipse"? Or do you just tell them cause you know CSS??

Now, don't get me wrong. I think help is great. I want all the help I can get... but people need to step back and realize that the more help they get on a regular basis, the less they might be likely to know what is actually going on. If you (the generic you) find that you can't remember things off the cuff because you are so used to having an auto complete or pop-up attribute editor... you have to WEIGHT the trade off for yourself. Is it worth it? Is being a faster programmer always the same as being a smarter programmer? Is one more important to you?


Rich,

Good point, there are a couple bugs in the cfscript autocomplete, but you should be able to shut them off in the preferences pane for CFE... I'll check but last time I looked it was working fine. You can shut off auto-complete for #, ", ', (, {, [, and insertion of a closing tag.

Ben,

I hear ya and I've tried editing with a text editor (in fact for quick things I do it often... TextWrangler on OSX), but I just *can't* remember some things... it's not a matter of practice, it's a matter of eventually having to look up whether cfloop list="" needs item or index. Yeah, I know that's index because I beat myself up last time I had to go look it up.

The fact (for me) is that I don't care if I can code without an IDE that forces me to memorize the language... I care if I can get the logic worked out and the algorhytm designed to do what I need to do. If language constructs are an issue, I'll either look in livedocs, cfQuickDocs, or use insight in my IDE of choice.

And if someone asked if I knew how to make italics using CSS my answer would be "Dude, you KNOW I suck at design... go look it up." Kinda like my dad used to do when I asked what a word meant. ;)

Laterz...


Ha ha ha ha :) I like your dad's style. I used to have a science teacher who was like that. Except, her response was always "I can't tell you that right now".

And I agree with you. I was not putting down help. I used HomeSite 5.5 and I use CTRL+F4 Alll the time (popup-attribute editor) as well as the f1 on a tag for help. I was just saying people have to weigh the pros and cons of such actions.


When I started writing HTML, back in 1991, there were no IDEs. I used Multi-Edit and I still use it as my editor-of-choice. I recently moved to CFEclipse and I will say now that it is easy to learn and and makes a lot the coding easier. I have less to remember and look up.

For the really quick jobs, I will use Notepad. This comes in handy when at a clients site. I have Never used Homesuite, Dreamweaver, Frontpage as I feel these programs only limit what I can do with code. Plus, in the early days, they were just SO Wrong so much of the time.


Jared,

I did turn off all those auto-close options in preferences...but cfscript still continues to auto-close. Regular cf tag code works fine.


@Rich: 'Tis a known issue and I shall get round to fixing it soon. I might take some holiday after 1.3 goes live... and before you ask.. I dont know when that is.. when I have got it to a stage where the bugs dont bug me.


I have to disagree overall with Craig.

I don't consider it my objective to learn syntax by heart nor remember the exact spelling every method of every object I create. In fact, that's usually not in my job description.

What is in there, is to provide technical solutions to business problems, and that should be accomplished as efficiently possible. That's the objective.

And my IDE should expedite me reaching that objective.

Of course, we can simply ignore the roughly 10 times as many job opportunities using the Visual Studio IDE, and keep on writing code in notepad+ or a plethora of almost there IDEs...

5,255 http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=coldfusion+OR+%22cold+fusion%22&l=&radius=100&sort=date

54,716 http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=c%23+or+%22visual+basic%22+or+asp.net&l=&radius=100&sort=date


Gary F wrote, "I have Never used Homesuite, Dreamweaver, Frontpage as I feel these programs only limit what I can do with code. Plus, in the early days, they were just SO Wrong so much of the time."

Gary, I assume you meant HomeSite, and perhaps you refer to the "design tab" that used to be there (and is no more), but let us be clear: if you use HomeSite/HomeSite+/CF Studio and never went into that design tab, it would not "get anything wrong". I suppose there may be occasional errors in the tag completion and insight, but those were very minor.

I realize some don't want such features, because the "do their typing for them and get in the way". I on the other hand am always quick to point out how to set them up so that they happen immediately, without the built-in 2 second delay. I LOVE it to fill out for me what the available attributes and values are as I type the first letters. It's SUCH a huge timesaving.

Indeed, I'll put out there that I'd take on someone who avoids them in a race to complete a set of CFML code faster: me and my keyboard and those timesavers against their typing it all in by hand. Heck, I'll even race someone devoted to their mouse. I'm confident my use of the keyboard would win each time. :-)


I gotta go with Charlie on this one...

DW's default delay is just annoying... too quick for me to finish what I was typing all the time but too slow to be comfortable. I usually either jack it up to 4 seconds (so if I'm stuck I know I can wait for it to pop up while I think) or cut it back to a half-second so it's almost instant.

I don't think anyone can legitimately claim they can type faster than a pattern like this:

Once you get used to the IDE and the routine, you no longer have to look up obscure attributes, you can cut back your overall typing... which saves time and typos. In that example I actually typed 10 characters relevant to the tag itself, and chances are I'd have copy/pasted the URL in from a browser after testing something else.

It can be not only a HUGE timesaver but produce more consistent code with fewer typos.

NOTE: I also like auto-indent, auto-close, tag auto-close and tag editor panes (which I rarely use but are very handy when you really do need one).


Charlie A wrote: "Gary, I assume you meant HomeSite, and perhaps you refer to the "design tab" that used to be there (and is no more), but let us be clear: if you use HomeSite/HomeSite+/CF Studio and never went into that design tab, it would not "get anything wrong". I suppose there may be occasional errors in the tag completion and insight, but those were very minor."

Yes I meant HomeSite and yes, let us be clear. I also stated "in the early days." I still hate editors and software writers that think they know better than I do.

I have my own style and ... well, enough said.

I don't like software like FrontPage, DreamWeaver, and HomeSite. Just don't like it. America; what a country.


Damon,

Can you please fix your mail server. Please add the SPF informaiton to your DNS.

-------

This is the Spam Firewall at smtp12.dc2.safesecureweb.com.

I'm sorry to inform you that the message below could not be delivered. When delivery was attempted, the following error was returned.

: host smtp.secureserver.net[64.202.166.12] said: 554 refused mailfrom because of SPF policy (in reply to MAIL FROM command)


Mark, what is your favorite beer, and how do I send it to you? :)

Thanks,

rich


Part of me says not to respond to Gary's note but part of me feels it's worth clarifying any remaining misconception. Gary, if my comments still aren't useful, please just let it be.

But I asked a very reasonable question: whether you were referring to the "design tab" (which did WYSIWYG editing). You didn't say so in your first note, and still have not. Instead, you say 'I also stated "in the early days"', but that doesn't really answer anything. If you mean to say that it *was* that feature that annoyed you, or you just can't recall, then fair enough.

But if you consciously mean to say that regardless of the design tab you'd still hold that homesite "thinks it knows better than you do", then that's where I have to step up in protest (and defense, and sincere hope that you'll reconsider it or other editors). It doesn't do any code building for you, other than code completion and tag insight, etc, all of which can easily be turned off, as has been said.

It NEVER touches your code in a way you don't initiate. It's a CFML (and HTML) source code editor. Certainly far more useful than just Notepad or other non-CFML editors. I just can't abide it being lumped in with FrontPage. :-) They're just not the same beast at all. FP is VERY MUCH a WYSIWYG editor.

And though I didn't respond to it earlier, my arguments also apply to Dreamweaver MX. It, too, offers an OPTIONAL WYSIWYG design view but if you never go to it, then it's also "just" a CFML (and other languages) code editor with lots of extra features (all of which do tend to contribute to its weight and speed, in my mind). And in recent years, they've even worked to make DWMX do even less to muck with your code if you DO go into design mode.

Anyway, HomeSite and CF Studio (for most) are fast, reliable editors. Of course, DWMX and CFE each have their own unique strengths and equally adamant adherents. :-)

I realize Damon is just meaning to gather people's perspectives on editors of choice, not meaning to have a religious war about them. :-) Still, as a flag bearer for the old school fans, it just seemed that this point of contention deserved clarification.

If nothing else, I hope any who use NO CFML editor would reconsider choosing one, whether one of those or the new one that Damon alluded to. They don't need to "get in the way". If that misconception continues to exist, then it seems this is indeed a valuable aspect of the conversation to have had.


To Charlie: I haven't looked at HomeSite since it was first introduced. Thus, 'the early days.'


Personally i love these kinds of conversations as long as they are helpful and useful.

Sadly it can be a flame war instead of, how can we each, in our ways be more efficient and better coders.

In my fragile mind :), there are at least 3 schools of thought in terms of ide usage.

1. Old School - Let me code my own bleep way, and don't get in my way, do exactly what i want and no more.

2. Middle of the Road - I like to do my own coding, but may want some help here and now.

3. I want as much help as possible - Tag Insight and more, i want as much as i type help as possible.

None of these approaches are wrong. So let's not make it personal.

However what i really would like, since i personally am of the old school path, is tips suggestions, software suggestions, to help me even be more efficient, while not trying to do the coding for me, per se.

I know Charlie Areheart has written many articles on homesite and studio, but what are your favorite tools and tips that help make you more efficient, in your own way.

And btw Damon Cooper, please offer an unsubscribe option.

P L E A S E

:)

Thank you


@Rich: JD is my drink, but I do have a wish list over on my blog if you ARE feeling charitable :)

@Craig: Very good points, these things should be customisable in CFEclipse to a point, but I shall bear in mind my development of CFEclipse.


Well one idea i always thought would be fun, cool and useful, is to have a skinnable idea.

So that you have the core functionality, that the idea can provide, but use a configurater, to hav ea custom look and feel and interface for your tool of choice. And control to the t what options you want running and not.

Because for the old schoolers, we'd want as little options enabled as possible..

But if we need it there, it's there for us to enable.

Which for those who want a really fast idea, can control that...

oh and one idea i saw recentally that i'd love to hve more used, is a universal code snippet library, and a code showcase.

I mean as developers we can't really take our code and show how good we are because of proprietaryness. But this has to change, we need to be able to prove our value in solid ways, as long as we reveal or create no security holes..

or maybe do something like experts exchange, where people present coding problems. And people who code can solve that problem in as many frameworks as they like. So that for each solution there is many usable ways to deploy and use it right away.

anyways i have a ton of ideas, but that's what my blog is for :)


One thing I forgot to mention that I would love to see in an IDE is a better search utility.

For instance I want to search and find all templates that have the words "CFSELECT" and "VALUE" in the same line of code. I don't care if the line reads or something like I want to find both of those lines without having to search just on CFSELECT.

Make it more like a Google search.

Have an Ordinary Day... Kurtis ~|:-)


Kurtis D. Leatham, one of the side benefits of using (CF)Eclipse is the regular expression searching which gives that type of seach. Eclipse also allows you define and name a set of files to search.


1) CFEclipse for less than 6 months, homesite sometimes

) CFStudio/Homesite 5.5. Reasons we droped them: a) Flex2 with FlexBuilder in eclipse b) RDS now available with Eclipse c) Seems a dead end with Homesite

3) Keep eclipse (for the standard), and improve deployment possibilities. (i.e. offer ability to record the deployment path on folder defined in eclipse project like in Homesite, include files in a deployment script just by right-click on the file in the navigator, etc.)

Hope the wand will become magic ...


1A)_At work I use Dreamweaver. This is only because CFEclipse does not support my environment at work.

1B) At home I use CFEclipse.

2) Studio, Homesite, DW, CFEclipse. I started using DW because they stopped making studio.

3) CFEclipse would be my ide of choice but it has some limitations. For me the only thing it is missing is the ability to put a file to a remote server on save. I know you can ftp files from it but it is not simple. DW has this functionality and it is why I have to use DW at work.


I think it's time to end this long winded conversation.

Because honestly, no 1 tool provides the answer for everyone. Because everyone has different needs, style and levels of knowledge and experience.

I don't see myself ever going to an ide, but I am willing to see if there are any really good text-editors, that are new and still being updated, as textpad seems to be a dead product, sadly.


I buy some CF Card,IDE-CF,SATA-CF adapter from a china factory , and find it good quality and lower price,so i want share with others my feels.Especially,the IDE-CF only 1.98USD,and SATA TO CF,the same like addonice,but the price just need 9.9USD Websit: http?//www.soarland.com


yea, i try to buy from the factory, and the quality is good and low price. good: http://www.soarland.com


HomeSite CodeTemplates->CFEclipse Snippets.

No idea if someone already put a script up for this...

All of my "Snippets" in homesite were actually in the form of Code Templates (codetemp.dat).

Heres a very raw and dirty script I used to convert them for CFEclipse (I stress the word raw and very - kinda a 2 minute project ;) )

'> FileWrite("c:\temp\#trim(listFirst(Right(x,len(x)-1),"|"))#.xml", "#newFileCon#");holdList=listAppend(holdList,"#trim(listFirst(Right(x,len(x)-1),"|"))#=/#trim(listFirst(Right(x,len(x)-1),"|"))#.xml",chr(13));

##These key combos are used by the cfeclipse plugin. ##Thu #dateFormat(now(),"mmm dd")# #timeFormat(now(),"hh:mm:ss")# EST #year(now())# #holdList# FileWrite("c:\temp\keyCombos.properties", "#keyComprop#");


harika bir ba?ar? tebrikler daha güzellerini bekliyoruz.

visit : http://www.Aylak.com


Hey Damon

how can I unsubscribe from the comments of individual posts on your blog?

I'm looking for an unsubscribe link and coming up short...